Warren Mainard: All right. Well, hey, this is a great start to kind of a reboot of the Men's Ministry Roundtable. And we've got some great men's ministry leaders who are on the Zoom, more guys that are joining as we speak. But today I wanted to just get some guys to chime in on the topic of getting guys to show up. And we could probably interpret that in a few different ways. So please feel free to go in whatever direction you want to on that, that big topic. But, I think we all know that men really need to be in fellowship with other men. They need to be discipled. They need to be encouraged and challenged. They need to have their own special times together with other men. But getting them to show up, getting them to break away from their ultra busy schedules, their other commitments, that can be a challenge. So, yeah, let's just talk about that. How do we get guys to show up? And we continue to welcome the guys that join in. Please feel free to introduce yourself in the chat and just take yourself off mute anytime you want to chime in and share, what are some ways that you help guys to get inspired to show up? And Chris, you just dropped something. Maybe just share that with the guys.
Chris Cannon: Yeah. There's, we got three Chris' here. This is gonna be tough. We got Harp just rolling in. It's a recovery process, but something I've learned over the years is show up, and that's the other form of showing up, show up not just physically, but emotionally being in your, the best version of yourself. I mean, and then staying present, which is very hard for me because I'm thinking about the next thing or the last thing, telling the truth, which is hard for me because I want to read the room and say what the people want me to say. And then the hardest part is passed for Chris, is letting go of the outcome. So if I get another tattoo besides my wife's name on my ring finger, it will be those four steps right there, because I'll get 'em on my forearm, two on each arm. Because if I can live each day and each hour in those four things, showing up this morning in this call, staying present, not looking at my phone, telling the truth, and letting go of whatever you guys think of me. I'm good. And men are good. And leading with vulnerability. I think what, getting men is show up starts with me showing up first. So if I show up first and lead with vulnerability, men seem to follow right alongside.
Warren Mainard: Love it. Good word. Jump in guys. How do you get men to show up?
Chris Harper: Yeah, I think if you show 'em a way to win, they show up. I think a lot of men don't engage and a lot of men don't play 'cause they don't know how to win. This goes for ministries, churches. I had a guy one time asked him why he didn't like going to church. He said, "It's not that I don't like going, I just hate that my wife's better at it than me." So I think it's super important, man, to show men how to win. Society beats them down so much. Culture beats them down so much. We show 'em how to win, they'll play the game, they'll engage, give 'em a target to hit, right? I think, I was sharing with you, Warren, that this is a true story. A national janitorial company, the employees were complaining about cleaning urine up off the floor around the urinals. So the owner of the company had an ingenious idea. He painted targets inside the urinals and it eliminated 80% of the waste because every man just wants to shoot at a target. They don't care how young or old he is. He just wants a target to hit. So if you give him a target, man, they'll show up.
Warren Mainard: That is an illustration that is going to find its way into a sermon or a Bible study that I write somewhere down the road, Chris.
Kevin Goodnight: Or maybe just a insert for every man to put in their own toilet. Man, we should just a little side hustle. I love it.
Warren Mainard: Yeah. I mean, I think the better...
Chris Cannon: Shark Tank.
Warren Mainard: The Better Man urinal targets, that's your next big money maker, Chris.
Chris Cannon: Dude, it's awesome. Curriculum and urinal targets. That's kind of how Better Man rolls
Warren Mainard: And what is sin? Sin is missing the mark, right? So every time your wife cleans up pee on the floor and you can just tell her, I have sinned.
Chris Cannon: I have sinned, I've sinned. Father, forgive me.
Chris Harper: I have fallen short of the glory of God.
Chris Cannon: Oh, this is going south fast.
Warren Mainard: I love it.
Chris Cannon: But, Chris, to your point, I have a saying that men play not to lose. And I, and I think of like the two point conversion, how rare it is when, and I love it when a coach goes for the, when he doesn't have to and he goes for the two point conversion, but most men are playing not to lose in life. They're not playing to win. They're playing not to lose.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Kevin Goodnight: I think for me, tangible and only being in this space for just, dedicated for nine months, my mission was to punch men in the face real hard. And 'cause that's how, that's how I thought worked for me. And it did work for me. But I, I'm pivoting now to the next generation. If we can help dads see that the goal is to reach the next generation, then they all of a sudden get their act together along the way. It's not this, Hey, you gotta come perfect. So I've done two things tangibly. I started a backyard Bible study with my sixth grade boys, my son. And all of a sudden, invites 10 friends, and the dads show up. The dads are invited. And it's actually through a ministry called Practice Ministries based outta Dallas, 30-year-old old ministry. And the curriculum's spoon fed, donuts and coffee and boys show up, and we have a little deal on the back porch, and I'm reaching more men be by reaching their sons. I had a dad recently come to me, he said, Hey man, I'm embarrassed. I said, what's up? He goes, I don't know how to pray. And I'm like, oh gosh. I thought I was just here to, I thought I was just here to help reach the next generation. So, however we can include kids, I think I'm also doing a backyard barbecue called BBQ & A and just what's, what do we wanna answer Questions. And the dads follow and the dads are engaged. And it gives them that opportunity to be engaged. I think that's probably the big takeaway. How do we get dads the opportunity to be engaged?
Warren Mainard: Yeah. That's good word, Kevin. 'cause I think one of the things that we hear a lot is like guys saying like, I don't really see how this Bible study or this church service is really helping me be a better man. It's not helping me be a better husband, a better father, you know? But if you say, Hey, like, I wanna help you and your son be stronger now, there's like a real benefit. There's kind of a return on investment that that guys can tangibly see. So I think that's a great point. Yeah, so welcome again guys, guys who come in. We're talking about how to get guys to show up. Please put your introduction and any links about you that you wanna share in the chat. But yeah, keep feeding us guys. What are some things that you found that work that helped get men in the room? And then how, once they're in the room, how do you get them to really show up as we've kind of talked about emotionally, spiritually, relationally with other men?
Gary Shavey: Can I just do a follow up on, Chris's thing about winning? Like what are examples of like how you showed a guy a win? Because I think some people might have totally different definitions. Men might even have different definitions of a win, if you don't mind.
Chris Harper: Yeah. That's so good, man. So women are very relationally oriented. Men are more task oriented. So one of the things we have to do is remind them that the task is the relationship. To win is to help introduce a man that, that he needs friends, that he needs community, that no man is an island. So creating a space where that could happen is, would be a win. Surgeon General recently said, the number one killer of men is loneliness and isolation. So I just think creating a space where men can come and be men. But then after that it's presenting a definition. I rarely do something that doesn't have a defined purpose. Men are looking for something that works, something that improves them. That's why they flock to Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate and Joe Rogan, right? Who show them how to get ripped, get rich, get laid, all these things. And really we have the way that works, like we have Jesus, we have the best thing in the world that really can help your life. Maybe not make you more successful or make you more popular, but it really does enrich your life. So providing a definition, anytime I invite a man somewhere, I always define what we're doing. And sometimes the definition is, Hey, we're just getting together to watch football and hang out. Sometimes we're getting together to talk about Ephesians. Sometimes we're gathering, XYZ, but I always offer a definition so that the man knows what he's getting into. I think so often we have these events, or we have these gatherings and a guy shows up and he was just looking for fellowship, and all of a sudden everybody's sitting around a fire crying about their latest sin, and it's super uncomfortable. Or we invite a guy to come go deep or get deep with God, and he shows up, and all we're doing is watching a football game and eating nachos. And he is like, yeah, this was a waste of time. It's 'cause there was an unmet expectation. So in the context of winning, man, set the expectation, this is what we're gonna do when we get together. And, I think that's a huge step.
Chris Cannon: That's good.
Gary Shavey: Are you as open as saying like, Hey man, that was a win for you right there too. You're pointing it out as they're going.
Chris Harper: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. For sure. I'm not, yeah... So encourage, so for me, encouragement is the key. There are so many men that are discouraged. And I did, I apologize. I don't mean to talk this much, but there's so many church programs that promote intensity over consistency. And I'm the opposite. Like I, I'd rather you be consistent, not intense. So I'm really not hosting something where we're gonna go on a 21 day prayer fast, but what I will do is celebrate the guy that's praying for five minutes every day. Just connecting with God as much as he can. It's like the guy that comes to me and says, Hey, I read one of your studies, or I'm gonna read the Bible in three months. And I'm like, well, how often do you read the Bible now? He's like, well, I don't. I'm like, bro, that's a terrible idea. Like, don't read the Bible in three months. That's why Genesis one through 12 are the most read scriptures in history, because after 12 it gets real weird and hard, and then everybody just falls off. How about we just start reading the Bible five minutes a day? And then let's celebrate. Once you've done that for 30 days, man, let's celebrate that. Let's go out and have pizza. Grab a drink. I mean whatever, right? I mean, let's celebrate the fact that you were in the word for five minutes a day for 30 days, and then let's go to 10 minutes and then 15 minutes. But for me, to your point, Gary, man, it's celebrating those small wins all the time, because again, I just think men generally are very, very discouraged.
Gary Shavey: No, I don't think you're dominating the time. I think that's helpful for me just to continue to help guys realize why they're getting involved. A value add, because a lot of guys wanna do value add.
Chris Cahnnon: And it might be good just to ask the guys in the front end, what's a win for you? What would be a win for you today? What would be a win for you in this study? What would be a win for you in this time? And they can declare it what their win would be.
Warren Mainard: Yeah, that's a good word. I think about just the way that Jesus was able to get guys to show up and the invitation that he gave to Peter is such a great picture. He just, he was very direct, follow me and I will make you a fisher of men. And so he made a direct ask. He made a personal invite, and then he gave him a vision of what that time with him could do in his life. And I keep trying to find a way to get guys to show up without me having to personally invite them. And that doesn't really, I mean, it doesn't really seem to work that well, even like this round table was really me personally inviting guys and saying, Hey, would you be a part of this with me? And so I mean, I'll just be candid, like there are times where I might have to personally invite 50 to a hundred men to get them to come to a monthly breakfast or a cohort or to get together for coffee. And as you build those relationships and as they get more accustomed to what you're doing, they start to do it on their own and you don't have to do quite so much reconnaissance work. But those initial asks, I think are really powerful. And then I'll just share one other thing that I think has been powerful and you guys have already touched on it, show men how to win. But I think there's also something really powerful about helping them to feel like they're a part of something that's winning. Every man wants to be on a winning team, and nobody wants to be on a sinking ship. So if you can, if you can kind of frame your invitation and your ministry in a way where it's like, Hey, we are winning. Come join a winning team. Guys wanna lean in on that. They want to be a part of a winning team. And then they're also more likely than to invite other friends to participate because they're like, Hey, who doesn't want to have a championship trophy at the end of the season? I wanna be on the winning team. So that's, I think those are two things that I've found to be really helpful in this conversation of getting guys to show up is the personal invitation and letting guys know that if they come, they're gonna be a part of something that feels like they're winning.
Chris Cannon: Who remembers the Men's Fraternity curriculum, Winning at Work and Winning at Home? And that was before we even used the word 'winning' like we use it now.
Warren Mainard: Yeah so...
Chris Harper: There was a...
Warren Mainard: Oh, go ahead.
Chis Harper: Oh, I'll try to, I'll send this to Warren so he can send it out to a group. But John McNamara, he's one of the leading researchers out of Oxford in England, and he brought his team over to the States last year, and all they did for six weeks is they watched 2,000 channels of mass media. So everything from the New York Times to daytime talk show, they just watched it. And every time a man was mentioned, they just made a note. What they discovered in our country, in the west, 80% of the time, anyone is talking about men, it's in one of four lights; they're either a villain, a womanizer, a pervert, or an aggressor. 80% of the time in North America, when anyone is talking about men, they're talking about men is one of those four things: a pervert, a womanizer, an aggressor, a villain, right? So, so when we think about that, all these men we're trying to reach, and all these men we're trying to lead, and all these men we're trying to influence day in and day out, they're basically being told that they're the problem. They're being told that really society could do without them. I mean, they really do lead very discouraging lives, which by the way, when a guy learns how to win at work is why he'll spend 80% of his time at work. Because he feels appreciated, he feels valued. So I really do, man, I don't mean to belabor that, but we've gotta create a culture where men feel like I can be successful here, or it's okay to fail here because I'm gonna fail forward, right? And, and it just can't bee discouraging. I'm like, I'm done with the guilt ridden Father's Day sermons and these guys that are beating up on men and telling men, you're outta shape and you're not having enough sex and you're worthless as a dad and worthless as a husband. We, we've gotta start from a position of encouragement. If, in my opinion, if we're gonna really attract and win men, we gotta start from a position of encouragement.
Warren Mainard: Great word. Hey, I'm curious, some of you guys who have been, silent, on mute, do you have any nuggets or any questions that you would ask about this idea of getting men to show up? Your voice is valuable. We want you to be heard.
Michael Mattes: One thing we do is name excuses and then say that we can't use them.
Warren Mainard: Oh, that's gold. Name the excuse and then eliminate that as an option. Wow. Thanks, Michael. Glen, how about you? Any nuggets that you could share?
Glen C.: I think more of a question that I have. I'm all about the creating a winning environment and, and inviting people to be part of a winning team. But how do you define winning? What are the goalposts that are going to be attractive to people that are sticky, that they're gonna bring 'em in?
Warren Mainard: Yeah, that's a great, and Chris is, Chris Harper is a great thinker on this. He is got his four W's. Chris shared those with the guys. But like, it's a very simple way of saying, Hey, this is what it looks like to win.
Chris Harper: Yeah, yeah. But even before that, the principle is if a thing is not rightly defined, or if a thing is not rightly understood, the abuse of that thing is inevitable. Which is why clarity and words and definitions matter. A man can't become what he can't define. So if we're not defining for them what a good husband is, if we're not defining what a good dad is, if we're not defining what it means to be a disciple, and when I say we, I simply mean the word of God. God has already presented the definitions. We're just pointing them back to those ancient pasts that Jeremiah talks about. And there's so much confusion. We call it a 'masculinity fog'. There's so much confusion around these definitions that we forget. Man, Gen Z and now Gen Alpha, the majority of these guys grew up without physical fathers. They grew up without spiritual fathers. They really didn't have a guide. So when a man doesn't have a definition, when he doesn't have a guide, he'll do one of three things. He'll either guess, which nine out of 10 times he's gonna guess wrong on how to win. He'll assimilate to culture, which basically he'll follow the loudest voice, which right now is Andrew Tate, which that's terrible. Or he'll just slow quit his manhood and masculinity, he'll just kind of drift into the background, won't speak for himself, won't lead, won't take hold of the inheritance, but he'll do one of those three things. So I think in context of man, showing them how to win, we've gotta step in and start defining things. This is what it means to be a godly husband, and we gotta keep it simple. We gotta keep it clear. It doesn't have to be theologically deep, at least not right away. So Better Man, our, we call it the scorecard. It's four W's. A real man courageously follows God's word. And we spend some time unpacking that. A real man loves and protects. He serves God's woman, he honors her. We spend some time unpacking that. A real man excels at the work he's given, whether he's a megachurch pastor or whether he's a plumber, it doesn't matter. We're working unto the Lord. And we unpack that a little bit. And then a real man betters God's world, and he does that through his children, church, and community. So because I'm old school Baptist, we alliterate everything, but it's word, woman, work world. It's super simple, super clear. And it's not the end all be all definition. There's probably better definitions. The point is we're defining what it is, and then the guy looks at that and goes, oh, okay. I can probably do that. Or at least I can try to aspire to that. When we keep it vague, that's where we just reinforce the confusion. Or worse we throw 'em in back into that guilt shame loop to where they always feel like they're losing. And there's a lot of ministries and unfortunately a lot of churches that do that, that's what we're trying to avoid. But that's what I mean by winning, Glen, really, it's just, it's defining these principles.
Glen C.: Right.
Chris Harper: And then calling men up to that.
Glen C.: Yeah. No, I love the stuff that you've done where you talk about calling men up to something instead of calling them out, that we're past that point. I guess I root my question in, I've worked a lot with Jim Putnam and Real Life Ministries in the past, and we would work with churches and everyone talks about discipleship and making disciples, but most people had never defined it. So nobody knew what the goalposts were, but they sure loved talking about winning, and they talked about making disciples and being a church of disciple makers and, but they didn't know what they were making. And until those things got defined, it was frustrating for everybody involved.
Chris Harper: And Jim caught a little heat, man, like 'cause you'll catch heat when you start defining things.
Glen C.: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Chris Harper: So somebody told me one time, they're like, bro, your definition is trash. And I was like, well, what's your definition? He's like, well, I don't have one. Well, I like mine better than yours is what I told him. I mean, like at some point, you gotta say, this is what we think it is. And again, it's not the end all be all. I'm believing things right now that I'm probably not gonna be believe in 20 years from now. Like, I want to grow in things, but there has to be a starting point.
Glen C.: Right. You gotta plant your flag.
Chris Harper: That's it, man. And Jim does a great job.
Glen C.: Yeah. Thank you.
C. Marsh Bull: Warren, I would just add something. I just have a mensgroup.org. So we're an internet ministry. We've been online for almost 14 years. It's relationships and it's time. And so we need the word, but it's a process. Process. So we talk all these things, but it takes time. And so I believe we have to go through that time of having a relationship, especially younger men, to reach them. The words help but behind that, and it's sad, but it takes, it takes a lot of time to get there. And so, it's the relationship, it's the process of them getting to know you and developing a personal and trusting relationship with the young man. And so it all works. But I've seen, I, it's surprised as though sometimes I go years without hearing a response or something from someone, and then all of a sudden they're there. So I think it's patience, which is tough. Humans, we have trouble with patience. A big, big problem. Being a little older, I've learned how to have, be much more patient. But I think that's very key.
Michael Mattes: That's a great word. I mean relationships by definition are not... don't move at the pace we want them to. They're not efficient.
Warren Mainard: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's true. And it's, they're not always linear. It can be all over the map, but that's a great word. We're gonna kind of wrap up the recorded part of this in just a moment. But, Marsh, I just think you, you hit the nail on the head. It really is about relationships. And I had a pastor tell me many years ago, he said, Hey, if you can just take a man out to lunch and get to know him and his story, the odds are, he'll follow you. He'll wanna be a part of what you're doing. And so I, that's just something I've really taken with me is like, how often can I take men out to lunch, grab a cup of coffee, hear their story, and then the other part of that is like, when men feel like they're not forgotten. So I oftentimes will reach back out to a man I haven't seen in 2, 3, 4 or five months and just say, Hey, thinking about you, how are you doing? How can I pray for you? What's going on? And oftentimes, that's the guy that's like, man, I've kind of been in a pit and your call came at exactly the right time. And, then he comes back and he kinda re-engages and gets involved again. And so instead of saying kinda, where have you been saying welcome home, I think is a good way of thinking about this. But, we're gonna wrap this up because I promise we're gonna keep the recorded part to 30 minutes. So I'm gonna end the recording now, but I want to invite guys to stay on to share as much as you want to.
